In the midst of what has turned out to be a wild year, singer/songwriter Terence Jack has been busy not only writing music but creating a home studio. With this freshly built studio, TJ is ready to rock through the rest of 2020, including the upcoming release of his new record, Bloom, this fall. The latest single, “Heart in Head Out”, from the record is out TODAY and TJ took the time to answer some questions about this crazy year and his music.
MFL: You have your own studio! When did you decide to take this on, what was the process like and how do you feel now that you are on the other side?
TJ: YES! It’s a crazy dream come true for me. For a guy like me who the only “gear” I had until 25-years old was 2 guitar tuner pedals to now having a slough of gear, it’s surprising to even me. I suppose that my progression happened over a longer arch of time than most.
Basically, while my wife and I were looking for our first house, I saw the garage and I planted the seed right away. We were fortunate enough to put in a bid and got the house and 1-year later during Covid we found the time to actually frame in the studio and make it happen. There’s still a few little last things to finish but I’m here all day every day writing, practicing and producing. The goal was to have the process from idea to song with as little resistance as possible.
MFL: Congrats on your new single! This track is so full of hope, which we cannot get enough of right now. How did the idea for “Heart in Head Out” come to you?
TJ: ‘Heart In’ was born of music and chord progression first, and then gauged how the music made me feel. I think it has a triumphant feeling contrasted by the sort of chill downer verses. I think we live in a very heady world and I think we need to get back to our roots of being hearty. As an example, making a decision because I want to help someone opposed to this is going to make me money.
MFL: When can we expect your upcoming record, Bloom, and how will your new studio space affect this release?
TJ: Bloom will be out Oct 2020 and I feel it’s well overdue on releasing it. We have had it ready for a year and forces just stood in the way. I’m very excited to play live with the new menu of songs to choose from. Also, I have a lot of new ideas for new songs so once this is out it’s onto the next as fast as the team will allow.
MFL: What does Bloom represent to you and has that concept changed at all through this past year?
TJ: I think the important thing is what does Bloom represent to YOU. I mean I guess it’s multilayered but I’d like the listener to have it mean something to them that differs from my initial intention. Metaphors everywhere. Ha
MFL: Finally, we are halfway through the year at this point. Do you have any goals or visions moving forward for 2020? If so, what are they?
TJ: Whoa. Personally, educating myself to be the best human I can. For music my goal is to start to record the next album and prepare for a solo tour for whenever the world opens up again.
Little Kid is set to release their newest album Friday, July 3rd. In anticipation of the release, the band let me fire some questions at them regarding the evolution of the musical project and much more. The band consists of members Kenny Boothby (lead), Megan Lunn (banjo, keys, vocals), Paul Vroom (bass &vocals), Liam Cole (drums) and Brodie Germain (drums, guitar, percussion).
MFL: I understand your musical project has been around since 2011. How did Little Kid begin and how did it become what it is today if you can articulate?
Little Kid (LK): The first Little Kid album came out in April 2011, but I had been working on some of those songs since 2009, so in a sense the project has been around even longer… It started out as a way for me to experiment with writing and recording music by myself for the first time (prior to LK, I was basically just in a bunch of joke bands with my friends, and I’d never tried to write a song I sincerely liked). I was really interested in recording on tape and integrating found sounds into my songs, and Logic Songs turned out to be a mix of pretty simple folk-influenced songs and more ambient soundscape stuff. When I started playing shows, I found myself wanting to perform with other people, and Brodie became a pretty consistent collaborator and we wound up recording the second Little Kid album together. From there, the band has seemingly grown a little bit with each release, and each one has been more collaborative than the last. Paul joining around 2015 had a big impact on the recording fidelity as well, because he went to school for that sort of thing and has recorded us in his home studio since then. Nowadays, the songs typically start with a musical idea I bring to the table, and the band helps me develop it musically. The lyrics have mostly been by mine exclusively, with the exception of one song Brodie wrote and sang lead for on our previous album, Might As Well With My Soul.
MFL: Along those lines, since this project has been around for almost a decade, has its intention changed at all while you have grown as a person?
LK: Definitely the intention has shifted over time. Lyrically, I’ve tried to be less prescriptive – I feel like a lot of my older stuff seemed to have a clear message or moral, but I don’t feel comfortable imparting anything resembling wisdom these days. I’ve definitely embraced storytelling more in recent albums, and I think the songs folks have connected with the most have been the ones that tell a compelling story. Also, as I mentioned earlier we have moved towards a more collaborative approach over time. I think things have shifted musically as well: in some ways, the songs are more direct (distinct verses and choruses, less meandering passages), but they have become more experimental in other ways (working in unexpected chords and finding ways to make the songs sound strange without resorting to guitar pedals and computer plugins).
MLF: It seems you have bounced around Ontario for many years! Have you lived outside of Ontario? If so, where?
LK: Sadly, no. I’ve lived in a few different cities in Ontario. For a long time my goal was to wind up in Toronto, and despite a lot of gripes I have with it, it’s probably still my favourite city I’ve been to. I hope I can stay indefinitely, but the high cost of living definitely feels unsustainable.
MFL: How was music part of your upbringing and when did you know it would be part of you forever?
LK: My upbringing was pretty intertwined with church, and that’s where a lot of my most formative musical education happened. I went to a Catholic school, and attended masses occasionally there, but my family went to a Pentecostal church from my childhood right up until I moved out at 17 to go to university. I learned piano and a bit of guitar when I was really young from a more traditional, classically-trained musician, but it didn’t stick. When I was around 11, I got an electric guitar and started taking lessons from a high school student from my church and learned some of the basics there. But music really started to click for me when I started playing in the worship band. I started to notice patterns – a lot of those songs are built around the same chord progressions – and I got some really valuable pushes in that direction from a couple musicians at the church who kinda blew my mind with things like the circle of fifths. I grew up with a piano in the house as well, and I think when I started to play that again around 13 or 14, and noticed the ways it relates to the guitar, it all started to click and I fell in love.
MFL: Little Kid has shared the stage with some incredible musicians! Can you touch on some of your favorite experiences?
LK: We’ve definitely been blessed with some incredible opportunities. A show we often reminisce about was playing with Friendship in September 2017 – they are just an incredible band. One that was kind of surreal was getting a last minute offer to open for Keaton Henson at a sold-out show at the Great Hall in Toronto. That’s the biggest venue LK has ever played… We were told it needed to be a solo set and I was given about a day’s notice to get prepared. I was super nervous and I definitely made some mistakes, but overall it felt great and I think we reached a lot of new folks with that set.
MFL: What do the next few weeks look like for you all in anticipation of the release of Transfiguration Highway on July 3rd?
LK: Not super eventful from the looks of it… Most of us are laid off from work so we are just trying to stay indoors and keep healthy. I’m lucky to live with a couple friends right now so I have company – it would be really hard to be alone through all of this. I’ve also been trying to keep up with what is happening in the US and Canada right now with the Black Lives Matter movement, and trying to find ways to help.
MFL: When and how was the idea for Transfiguration Highway born?
LK: The songs sort of came together separately without a particular concept in mind. The album takes its name from the song “Transfiguration Highway,” and that song is about returning to your hometown and examining the ways both you and the place have changed over time. It was mostly inspired by a visit to Petrolia (my hometown) in early 2019. The title felt fitting for the album, though, because a lot of the songs in the album include some mention of roads or highways and I picture a lot of the characters in the songs as existing somewhere along the highway from Petrolia to Toronto.
MFL: Feel free to answer individually or as a group! Who are you listening to when you are you not working on your own music? I love hearing about what kind of music artists are digging into!
LK: I think some more-or-less band-wide favourites would be Radiohead, Big Thief, Bob Dylan, Neil Young, Wilco, and Modest Mouse. Lately, I have been enjoying the Tenci album that came out last week and the Empty Country album that came out a few months ago, and I keep finding myself going back to DAMN. by Kendrick Lamar recently. Brodie from LK recommended a recent album called Floatr by Happyness and that has been a pretty frequent listen too.
Transfiguration Highway is out tomorrow, July 3rd, on Solitaire Records. Big thanks to Dan Rutman for facilitating.
Kyler Tapscott’s emotive music and potent ability to layer lyrics and melody in a way that is so pleasing the to the ear, was immediately clear to me on his track, “Home.”
A more recently released track, “Cloud9”, offers a completely different side of Kyler’s musical abilities.
Kyler took the time to answer some questions I had about his musical process and inspirations in addition to what is in store for the remainder of the year.
MFL: You picked up a guitar at a young age. How and why did this instrument call to you? Kyler Tapscott (KT): I first started playing when I was maybe 7 or 8 and it just didn’t stick. After about 5 years of laying dormant I picked up a guitar (mostly because my older brother was starting to learn) with a vengeance and immediately fell in love with the instrument.
MFL: Your music has a very real quality to it. I hear a lot of, what I would imagine, would be REAL instruments. Who are these other musicians on your recordings and how did they come to record with you? KT: Darcy Yates, my producer on the EP, knew some great musicians to lay it down in the studio and I also have some friends who are absolute ringers as well. They were all super pros and incredibly great to work with. On drums, the beat keeper I had Mr. Rich Knox, a Toronto based drummer who mainly works with Danko Jones. Darcy Yates from the Juno winning Canadian band Bahamas was holding down the low tones on bass and producing the project. Canadian music scene veteran Steve o’Connor was ticking the ivory on the record. A marvelous keyboard/piano player. Andrew Moljin, who plays keys and horns for Samantha Martin and the Delta Sugar kept it funky as the one man horn section. Ben Whitley lent me his skills with an upright bass for my song Home. Jimmy Bowskill from the Sheepdogs and Blue Rodeo played the strings on my song Home. I was the sole guitarist on the EP.
MFL: “Home” is such a warm track. Tell me about “Home.” When did they idea for the track come to you and did you hear the melody first or write the lyrics first? KT: That’s a song that came to me in pieces. I think I was just strumming a Dadd11 (nerd alert) chord and that melody was just floating around my head. I gratefully stole a line about Amsterdam or Rome from “Carey” by Joni Mitchell and the song developed from there. The idea of just being able to go anywhere with someone was romantic to me. Some elbow grease and later some tasteful strings and voila, “Home” was a song.
MFL: When did you decide to pursue a career in music and do you recall the moment when you decided? KT: I think I was lucky in that sense, I jumped in head first and was just so caught up in learning and enjoying music that it was really the only thing I wanted to do and work that hard at. My dad was also a freelance musician so he was always really supportive of me pursuing music, although was very real and warned me of the battles. Didn’t stop me.
MFL: What is typically the source of inspiration for your lyrics and melodies? KT: It really all depends on what I feel like I need to express or communicate. Sometimes it’s because I thought a certain word sounded cool over that chord, or this melody sounded really good with this word. It’s a very protean experience. I try to listen to artists whom I really admire and strive to acquire some of their sound and mix it into my own.
MFL: While listening to music by others, what are some of the major components of a track or album that make it “good”? KT: I listen to so many different types of music and artists that it’s hard to pinpoint. I feel like good honest songwriting is the most important thing, and people really relate to honesty. I particularly like a groove in the pocket, a nice mix and good production. When the words, the music and the production really capture a vibe it’s undeniable.
MFL: Along those lines, who are some of your favorite musicians, past and present? KT: Wow, that is a loaded question. Stevie Wonder is always high on the list. Django Reinhardt always blows me away, Tony Rice, Donny Hathaway. Vulfpeck, Joey Landreth and Ariel Posen and The Tedeschi Trucks Band are contemporary artists that I really enjoy their sound. There could be an entire interview on just this question but those are a small portion of the greats I admire.
MFL: If you’re not writing or recording, what are you up to? KT: I really love listening to records, cooking, taking my dog for a stroll, being with my partner. Life’s simple pleasures.
MFL: Finally, what are your major musical goals for the rest of 2020? KT: When we can finally play live again I can’t wait to play some shows with these new songs, I really feel like i’ll be able to shine a really new and exciting light to them in a live setting. In the meantime I’m releasing the last 3 songs of my EP and I have more in the bag that I can’t wait to record and do the whole process over again.
Follow Kyler on Spotify and Facebook. Big thanks to Kyler for answering my questions and Matt Carson for facilitating.
Ty Maxon’s heartfelt melodies, enhanced with his unique voice, and genuine lyrics grabbed me instantly. His music takes you somewhere private. Guarded at first, he has decided to let us in with his newest album, Rooms within Rooms, out now. I got to ask Ty some questions about his musical life and process. Check it out:
MFL: Congratulations on the release of your latest LP, Rooms within Rooms! It sounds like the process of writing and recording was unique in many ways. You touch on the fact that while recording you were simultaneously “figuring out how your brain worked.” Flesh this out for me with some specific examples if you can.
Ty Maxon (TM): Thank you! It feels good to finally have it out. The writing and recording process was definitely a unique endeavor. I think the process helped me to overcome and understand some of the subject matter that the record deals with.
In the past, I’d always write and play the tunes out until they felt tried and true. I’d then record the songs in hopes catching the “ideal” version.
I sort of did things backwards for this record. For whatever reason, these songs felt different than previous songs I’d written. I think I felt pretty close to them and felt somewhat guarded about the subject matter. Also, none of the songs were really played live before they were recorded. Sometimes, it’s helpful to gauge the effectiveness of a song by sensing an audience’s reaction. To not have that experience before recording these songs added a bit of uncertainty to them.
Ultimately, songs I thought were finished turned out to be scraps of songs and scraps of songs turned out to be as finished as they’d ever be. Hard to say why that is. There’s something mysterious about being alone with your songs in the middle of the night at the recording studio. It can make clear that what you thought you had is something else entirely. So, the recording process and writing process intersected at times. This made things interesting, unexpected and sometimes a little maddening. Glad it happened that way, though.
MFL: Additionally, you mention RwR being unique because a majority of the tracks feature a full band. How did this come to fruition and why did you choose to have a few tracks without the full band?
TM: I try to approach each song based on its own merits. For this record, each one seemed to need its own thing to feel right. This took some time to figure out but basically if something felt like it was missing in the way of additional instrumentation, I’d have some friends in to lay down some parts. If we added too many ingredients to the stew, we’d take them out until it was right and sometimes that just left me and the guitar.
MFL: What did the years look like musically for you between release of Calling of the Crows and your latest LP?
TM: Well, I sure didn’t mean to let so many years go by. I like to work on things until they feel right and that can take some time. Additionally, being an independent artist tends to tack on a lot of time when you’re self-financing a project .
During the time between records, I worked, played live and toured when possible. I also worked on developing my visual art of drawing and collage. To be honest, a big factor in my life since the last record was dealing with anxiety and depression. I mentioned feeling guarded about the songs on the new record – I think a lot of the songs come from a place of working through those things.
MFL: What was the impetus for writing RwR and what are you feeling now that it is out in the open?
TM: There was a time in my when I felt pretty isolated. I started thinking a lot about the reality of inner existence – that solitary place in our minds that we experience the world from and how this inner existence contributes to our sense of loneliness and isolation. “Rooms within Rooms” is a line from a poem that I wrote some years ago about a person being lost or trapped within that place.
MFL: Where did you grow up and how do you feel that shaped you as a musician?
TM: I grew up in Southwest Michigan, not too far from where I live now, in Chicago. Looking back, I feel pretty lucky about how the cards fell for a place to grow up. There was a big field by our house that I hung out in a lot. There was also a huge forest and an old cemetery that hadn’t been used since the early part of the last century. There were train tracks that connected all three spots so I used to walk on it to get back and forth. I began making up stories and songs in those places, I think. They were places to escape and to explore and pretend and I think they contributed to my interest in music and art in that way. My dad was always playing George Jones and Hank Williams, too so those songs were always floating around.
MFL: Do you feel that writing lyrics or melodies comes to you more easily? If so, please elaborate!
TM: I tend to work on melody at first. Once that’s going in the right direction, pictures start to appear. Eventually, words appear to bring the picture more into focus. I just try to stay out of the way and let things come at their own pace, mostly. I’ve written a few songs starting with just the words but usually it’s the melody that brings out the ideas for me.
MFL: Fast forward 5 years and imagine that you are listening to RwR. What do you think will be the most striking memories that will come back to you while you listen?
TM: My friend Jeff Breakey engineered and mixed both this album and my last. I think I’ll look back fondly on all the late nights of him and I experimenting with sounds, trying to get things right and just going through the ups and downs of creating something. I think I’ll also be proud of making something a bit beyond my comfort zone.
Ethan Burns just released his first solo album, Illusion, March 13th of this year. His unabashedly soulful voice has a way of reaching straight into the soul of his listeners. During these wild times, Ethan found the time to answer my questions about his musical history and musical process. Read below.
MFL: I read that you taught yourself how to play guitar. Is that when you and music began your relationship together or did your musical beginnings come before the guitar?
Ethan Burns (EB): I always loved singing along with songs as a kid but I didn’t start writing songs until I started playing guitar.
MFL: Where did you grow up, where are you now, and how did these locations influence you as a person and a musician?
EB: I grew up in Grover Beach, California. I moved around a lot in my early 20’s and now I’m back in Grover Beach.
As a writer you draw on experiences within your surroundings so maybe in some subconscious way certain imagery is absorbed and reflected within the songs.
MFL: Illusion is your first solo album which is incredibly exciting! When and how did the idea for Illusion come to you?
EB: I started recording half of the songs for Illusion back in 2014 with my friend Chandler Haynes and they ended up becoming unreleased material, demo tapes you could say. Those “demo tapes” resurfaced early last year and I had written a bunch of new songs that I felt fit into the concept so I had my friend Brenneth Stevens play pedal steel guitar over the whole collection and it completed the Album.
MFL: Now that Illusion is out, what do the next few months look like for you?
EB: I have a lot of shows lined up and I’m also getting ready for the release of my next Album Electric Mental State with my band The Ragged Jubilee.
MFL: If you were to pick a landscape for Illusion, what would it be?
EB: Walking through a small town at night or maybe the slight flicker of a light house in a storm.
MFL: How and when do melodies come to you? Do lyrics or melodies come first typically?
EB: It’s different every time, with some songs you feel like a radio and the song is moving through you, other times you sit and think about every word you want to say. Sometimes there’s just a melody that you can’t get out of your head.
MFL: If you could pick a handful of milestone events in your life in the last 10 years that lead you to where you are now, what would they be? I know…that is a loaded question!
EB: That’s a hard question to answer, the most meaningful event was the birth of my daughter.
MFL: Finally, if you can, pick your top three favorite albums from 2019!
EB: I don’t listen to a lot of current music but the three albums that I listened to the most in 2019 were:
The Silver Tongued Devil and I by Kris Kristofferson
Beat the Devil’s Tattoo by Black Rebel Motorcycle Club
Sabbath Bloody Sabbath by Black Sabbath
Big thanks to Ethan for answering my questions and Joshua Brinckerhoff for connecting us. You can follow Ethan on Spotify and Facebook.
Ben Alexander is truly gifted at creating emotive soundscapes that tell stories without words and conjure up images, either with specific intention or other times, left up to the listener. From Norway originally, Ben is currently in London where he is continuing to both work on personal projects of his own and write music for movies and television. Below, we dig into his writing process, inspirations and beginnings as a musician.
MFL: Your music has an incredibly atmospheric and emotive quality to it. What is your writing process like and what are some typical sources of inspiration?
Ben Alexander (BA): That is a great question. I have always been a great admirer of film music as this genre has a way of captivating selected emotions with just music. What I love about that music is that it doesn’t nhiecessarily need a vocalist to sing about what you are supposed to feel when you listen to the song. Instead, the music is created in such a way that it allows the listener to freely interpret and feel the music through their own individual mindset. I do, of course, write a lot of music that contains lyrics as well. I just have such respect for the unspoken music and would say that it is one of my most important sources of inspiration.
My writing process vary quite frequently. Sometimes a song can present itself in my mind and I need to start creating it physically when I am in the moment of inspiration. On other occasions, it may take time. I might need to explore my surroundings, think or listen to music that I adore in order to create something. I really enjoy discussing topics like philosophy and apply those thoughts to my current environment and this can be a great way of starting a new musical piece as well. I believe that music is very closely related to philosophy and the “deeper” aspects of your mind so for me, these two are closely linked to each other on many occasions.
MFL: Is there a difference in your writing process depending on whether your composing for a movie/TV show versus whether you are composing for yourself, personally?
BA: Yes and no. When I am composing for a movie/TV show etc., I often work for a client that wants to present a certain mood or feeling. This might vary depending on the client of course but very often they would want something that enhances their message or identity in whatever project they assign me to. It is then up to me to go deeper into that project and their vision to create something that follows their desire. As good music is based on sincere feelings (at least in my opinion), I need to personally understand the client’s identity in order to truly create something that is both beautiful and pleasing to the client and myself.
When writing my own music, I don’t have a set request from the beginning. This means that I am freer to create whatever I want. I set my own limits and manipulate them as I move on. It doesn’t necessarily have to be based on a certain mood or feeling but rather pure inspiration from either the get-go or throughout the process. I very much enjoy both types of making music as it brings me into new environments and expands my skills as both an artist and a composer.
MFL: How do you come across opportunities to compose soundtracks, or rather how do they find you?
BA: It’s a nice balance between contacting people yourself and them contacting you. When I approach people myself, I do it because I know I have something great to offer them and I want to provide them with exactly that. This can be everything from e-mailing relevant people in the film industry directly or meeting them at various events and building relationships. The industry is very much network-based so over the years, I have acquired friends in the film industry that I reach out to when I hear about new potential projects. After successful jobs, the work spreads around and I quickly receive e-mails from other filmmakers that have seen/heard my previous work and wants to involve me into their project. The industry is also very reputational based, so I always make sure that whatever project I am working on, I am doing my upmost best and strive for the ultimate perfection. My work is my identity and pride as it takes a piece of me every time.
MFL: If you were to share the stage with a musician from the past or present, who would it be and why? Feel free to discuss a couple if you cannot narrow it down!
BA: This is a very difficult question as I could name so many great musicians. I have chosen to present 3 different musicians based on their impact on me as an individual; Hans Zimmer, Chris Martin/Coldplay and Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson was such a huge inspiration to me growing up as I know he was for most people at the time. His music was innovative, his personality was inspiring, his stage performance was incredible, and his talent was unbelievably amazing. Chris Martin is the lead singer in the band Coldplay and these guys have been one of the few musicians who have continuously impressed and amazed me even to this day. I am a huge fan and being able to perform with Chris Martin or Coldplay collected would be a dream of mine. The last one I have chosen is the well-known film composer Hans Zimmer. I have attended his live performance in the past and all I can say is that there is no denying his musical genius. Even as a film composer, this man gives one hell of a performance and I would love to sit down with him on each of our pianos and play the music that has allowed so many people to feel.
MFL: When and how did music become a fixture in your life? List some milestones if possible!
BA: My mother told me a story of me when I was around 2-3 years old. Apparently, I was playing in the living room and my mother put on a record of the great Italian opera singer Andrea Bocelli. She explained that once the music started, I stopped playing with my toys, found my way over to the speakers and sat there throughout the entire record just staring at the speakers and listening. Obviously, I don’t remember this and I sincerely hope my mother wasn’t exaggerating that story (simply because I love it) but you can say that my love for music started at a very early stage in my life.
I started playing the piano at the age of 8 and has been playing since. Ever since I started playing that instrument, my own will to create started developing and I created my first song when I was 11 years old. I acquired a huge fascination with experimental sounds and musical tech and created many different songs that reached throughout many different genres. All in all you could say that my fixture of music has literally been there since the beginning.
MFL: Do you have a favorite location/venue in Norway that you like to play? What about worldwide?
BA: I haven’t really given too much thought about a favorite venue. It would of course be fantastic to play in front of a huge crowd that loved your music but in terms of a specific venue I don’t really have a direct answer to that unfortunately. I now live in London, so I don’t think much about certain venues in Norway either to be honest. I try to adapt to the places I am. If I had to choose specific venues on the spot, I would say maybe Royal Albert Hall, The Roundhouse, O2 Arena or Wembley Stadium. Not something unexpected from a musician I would assume.
MFL: Describe one of your most powerful performing experiences.
BA: There are always moments during a performance when you know that the crowd is actually there with you in their minds and spirit. When people actually listen, take in their impressions and really feels the moment. To ask that of every member of the audience would be ambitious as we are all different, but just a selection of them feeling it and moving with me as I perform is something that means indescribably much for any musician. The response from the listeners means so much during a live performance.
MFL: Your single set “Upeo // Daybreak” is your latest work. Is this part of something larger that we can all look forward to?
BA: Yes, it is. I am very much proud of this single as I have worked a long time on it and its finally ready for everyone to enjoy. It is part of a greater project, but I don’t want to say too much about that now. The single itself is meant to tell a story through music and although I have my own stories to present, I would encourage the audience to create their own narrative and connect with the single through their own inner self rather than being too affected by my descriptions. The single is set up by and intro and a main track that is two parts of a whole and hopefully my listeners will appreciate and truthfully enjoy it in a matter that makes sense to them.